Instrument Cables, Improving Tone

[Disasterxpieces]

Decided to replace all my guitar leads, some are 5yrs or older. Went about first comparing the ones I own there's about 15 of them they're Fender, Planetwaves, and Hosa.

The Fenders sounded cold and thin, as did the Hosa leads. My planetwaves sounded warm and powerful, they're also extremely low capacitance but I have no idea what the Fenders and Hosa leads are.

The difference was HUGE between guitar and tube amp anyone looking for new leads should check out the planet waves for sure, they're all I'm going to use from now on.

Decided on their Premium guitar leads with 1 L shaped 1/4 inch jack for the guitar end, went against the circuit breaker leads as it's just another thing to fail and the weight support on them looked weak. No use paying for a circuit breaker if your running a tuner or have a volume/standby switch.

Anyway I know its been talked about before but thought this was worth discussing as not using the Fender/hosa leads improved my tone a lot and for anyone new out there its good to keep in mind. ;-)

[gumtown]

i make most of my own.
i have excellent results using balanced mic cable (2 wire + sheild) where the 2 wires are connected thru for tip and shield, but the outer shield is connected one end only.
Totally noise free, i guess the impedance would be a bit lower, but it's no prob with active pups.

[Disasterxpieces]

i make most of my own.
i have excellent results using balanced mic cable (2 wire + sheild) where the 2 wires are connected thru for tip and shield, but the outer shield is connected one end only.
Totally noise free, i guess the impedance would be a bit lower, but it's no prob with active pups.

Ive seen kits for sale from planet waves, just haven't tried them yet would be great for making cables the perfect length for everyone's own rig. Might pick up a planet waves speaker cable for the amp to cab one day too. :rocker:

[frenchfries]

FOOTNOTE:

According to MANY technical tests that I've done...
Low capacitance cables are really not the Holy Graal.
Why?
A "low capacitance" cable keeps the "resonant frequency" of your passive pickups HIGH in the audio spectrum.
It gives sparkling clean tones (which is good)...
... but also thin and harsh crunch/distorted sounds.
Hendrix & SRV used HIGH capacitance cables to "beef up" the signal of their Strats - because high capacitance creates a passive mid boost effect.
High capacitance cables are easy to find: they are way cheaper than low capacitance wires. :icon15:
IOW, when a salesman says that low capacitance cables are better, he forgets to precise that such wires are better mostly for his marketing. :icon15:

Conclusion: I humbly recommend to anybody to test various cables with various capacitances and to select the better sounding - which is not necessary the low cap model.

FYI, I use a 600pf wire for clean tones with my Strat and a value of 1nano (1000pf) for any distorted sound. But I would never use passive pups with a cable of less than 450pf - I had 350pf wires in the past: they killed my tone.

[gumtown]

Yes!! more so importaint for the connection between the guitar and GT or amp with passive pups.



For the rest of the kit, the lower impedance twisted pair should be fine, for 4CM wiring or to a mixing desk. I use these mostly due to some venues house lighting systems are very noisey (for many reasons, mostly bad installation practices), and this type of cabling has proved (to me) to be better than ordinary guitar cables.

[frenchfries]

Yes!! more so importaint for the connection between the guitar and GT or amp with passive pups.



For the rest of the kit, the lower impedance twisted pair should be fine, for 4CM wiring or to a mixing desk. I use these mostly due to some venues house lighting systems are very noisey (for many reasons, mostly bad installation practices), and this type of cabling has proved (to me) to be better than ordinary guitar cables.


I second that: I use myself twisted pairs for any "active" connection. I was talking only about the "first" cable, the one between our guitar and its first electronic "host".

I used to build these twisted pairs myself with good wires and plugs but I've found that th Planet Waves custom cables do the same job and are more reliable, thx to their molded plugs. :rocker:

[bsfc9]

i make most of my own.
i have excellent results using balanced mic cable (2 wire + sheild) where the 2 wires are connected thru for tip and shield, but the outer shield is connected one end only.
Totally noise free, i guess the impedance would be a bit lower, but it's no prob with active pups.


Does it matter which end the outer shield is connected to?

[Disasterxpieces]

Interesting since I only use active pups and the Planet Waves which claim to be low capacitance I'm not sure how low sounded much clearer and more beefy.



FOOTNOTE:

According to MANY technical tests that I've done...
Low capacitance cables are really not the Holy Graal.
Why?
A "low capacitance" cable keeps the "resonant frequency" of your passive pickups HIGH in the audio spectrum.
It gives sparkling clean tones (which is good)...
... but also thin and harsh crunch/distorted sounds.
Hendrix & SRV used HIGH capacitance cables to "beef up" the signal of their Strats - because high capacitance creates a passive mid boost effect.
High capacitance cables are easy to find: they are way cheaper than low capacitance wires. :icon15:
IOW, when a salesman says that low capacitance cables are better, he forgets to precise that such wires are better mostly for his marketing. :icon15:

Conclusion: I humbly recommend to anybody to test various cables with various capacitances and to select the better sounding - which is not necessary the low cap model.

FYI, I use a 600pf wire for clean tones with my Strat and a value of 1nano (1000pf) for any distorted sound. But I would never use passive pups with a cable of less than 450pf - I had 350pf wires in the past: they killed my tone.

[Agent420]

I have been thinking of experimenting with an onboard active preamp (http://www.till.com/articles/GuitarPreamp/) (using std passive pups)... I think this should aid minimize the cable effect.


Why use a preamp?
While the voltage off an electric guitar pickup can be a healthy 2.0 Volts or so peak-to-peak if you're playing hard, the impedance of that signal is very high and the signal level, especially for the high frequencies, can be lost due to a long cable. As an experiment, try playing your instrument with a 20-foot cable direct into your amplifier, and then again with a 1-foot cable, and see if you can tell the difference.

Another advantage of a preamp is that the famous "loss of highs when you turn down the volume control" effect goes away. This is the effect that folks attempt to compensate for with a small capacitor across the volume control.

[Disasterxpieces]

Why not just get some emg's and be done with it? :wink:

[Agent420]

Why not just get some emg's and be done with it? :wink:

1 - diy preamp is much cheaper for experimenting

2 - I think there may be a tone difference between classic passive pups driving a preamp and active pups... I've tried emg's before but they just weren't for me. Too 'cold'?

[Disasterxpieces]

1 - diy preamp is much cheaper for experimenting

2 - I think there may be a tone difference between classic passive pups driving a preamp and active pups... I've tried emg's before but they just weren't for me. Too 'cold'?

Maybe that was your erm.... gt. ;-)

[frenchfries]

Interesting since I only use active pups and the Planet Waves which claim to be low capacitance I'm not sure how low sounded much clearer and more beefy.

Of course, my explanation was available only for passive pups, whose inductance reacts with the cable capacitance.
But according to the resonant frequency mentioned in their data sheets, active pups like EMG's include a capacitor reacting like a built in "cable simulator": if it wasn't the case, their tone would be awfully brittle and cold.

EDIT - Agent420, I have a Charvel guitar with a (stock) built in preamp: it sets the resonant frequency on a defined value whatever is the cable used BUT it adds a serious hiss to my tone...

[Ricig]

...
FYI, I use a 600pf wire for clean tones with my Strat and a value of 1nano (1000pf) for any distorted sound. But I would never use passive pups with a cable of less than 450pf - I had 350pf wires in the past: they killed my tone.

FrenchFries - any idea how Monster Instrument Cable stacks up in this measurement? I use primarily a 10' monster (the least expensive variant) as the lead from my guitar (passive hums) to the GT input. No other cables other than 3' monsters to my power amp/PA cabs. I think my cable could be contributing to my "sounds-like-ass" disto-tones.:shock:

EDIT: no wait....when it sounds great, i give my fingers the credit!:roll: When it sounds bad, i blame my cable!!:icon27: LOL i couldn't resist this follow up to the Tone thread.....ha ha

[frenchfries]

FrenchFries - any idea how Monster Instrument Cable stacks up in this measurement? I use primarily a 10' monster (the least expensive variant) as the lead from my guitar (passive hums) to the GT input. No other cables other than 3' monsters to my power amp/PA cabs. I think my cable could be contributing to my "sounds-like-ass" disto-tones.


AFAIK, some Monster cables are a well known example of low capacitance "thick wire but thin tone". There's a famous story told by Cesar Diaz, about SRV refusing this brand because of it...
But Monster cables appear to have changed along the years since their designers have understood how important is this question of capacitance... So, I don't know how YOUR cables must be rated. I just know that I personally avoid to use anything shorter than 15'...
Footnote: warning with high capacitance cables, nevertheless. I love their chunky warm vintage tone but I know some people who hate this character.

[Agent420]

EDIT - Agent420, I have a Charvel guitar with a (stock) built in preamp: it sets the resonant frequency on a defined value whatever is the cable used BUT it adds a serious hiss to my tone...
Hiss aside, do you like how it responds?

I've played some preamp models before, and never encountered the hiss thing. I've got to think that could be addressed either by components or design.

[frenchfries]

Hiss aside, do you like how it responds?

I've played some preamp models before, and never encountered the hiss thing. I've got to think that could be addressed either by components or design.


I loved it but it's no more the case : I've understood how to enhance the tone of my passive pups with a properly selected cables capacitance. So, now, I find that the fixed resonant freq of my Jackson preamp is slightly too high and make it sound a tad too "hollow". :icon19: But as a matter of fact, its onboard "cable simulator" capacitor is only of 450pf: maybe I should increase its value...

[Ricig]

AFAIK, some Monster cables are a well known example of low capacitance "thick wire but thin tone". There's a famous story told by Cesar Diaz, about SRV refusing this brand because of it...
But Monster cables appear to have changed along the years since their designers have understood how important is this question of capacitance... So, I don't know how YOUR cables must be rated. I just know that I personally avoid to use anything shorter than 15'...
Footnote: warning with high capacitance cables, nevertheless. I love their chunky warm vintage tone but I know some people who hate this character.

FF, Thanks for responding so quickly! Thick wire? I think I have the really old kind because it is no thicker than my Carvin cables (which are really aging). Anyway, I'm destined to try the Planet Waves. You advised this before, but I have yet to splurge on my "musical" self (wife has me enrolled in anti-GAS support group)....but I'll be dipped if all i need is some higher capacitance in my situation!

IDEA: If I crumple some tin-foil on one-end, will this add some capacitance too? I need to get the resonant peak into the no-suck zone on my disto or I will break something around here! :shock: LOL - i'm in a fiesty mood....work has settled down and not as stressful again....

[gumtown]

Does it matter which end the outer shield is connected to?

No it don't matter which end the sheild is connected,
but you need to make sure the end where the sheild is not connected has the shield copper insulated from the plug, and be aware that over time the shield copper can pull down along the inside of the cable.
So dending on the plug type you use, cut away the shield copper and pull the outer rubber a bit towards the end and the outer shell clamped over, or if the plug has no anchoring, bend the shield copper back over the exterior rubber and tape around it.

[Disasterxpieces]

Well cables arrived today and all have the warmth and clarity of my existing plant waves cables, goes well with my planet waves true-bypass tuner :icon12: All great products from these guys so far. Would such an improvement be seen by upgrading the speaker cable between amp and cab?

[ikonoklast]

2 - I think there may be a tone difference between classic passive pups driving a preamp and active pups...

Of course there is. In a passive configuration, the inductance of the PU and the capacitance of the cable work together to form a bandpass filter. The peak frequency changes when you change cables. If you want to know exactly how it works and how you can actually work with that:
http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/

Active electronics between PUs and cable eliminate that effect, they "isolate" the PUs, giving in effect a broader frequency range. On the other hand, active electronics change the load impedance, so the input of your amplifier "sees" a different source which may change your sound as well. This effect is more prominent with tube circuitry, so when running your signal directly to the GT 10, you may not notice it. With a 4CM config, you may notice it more.

I always say "may" since this is theory - how much it really effects your sound depends on the whole configuration so you just have to experiment.
Read the article by H. Lemme (see link above) and you will understand.

hth,
Alex

[ikonoklast]

Would such an improvement be seen by upgrading the speaker cable between amp and cab?

If you already are using decent cables, most likely no.
Here is a in-depth discussion - mostly hi-fi-oriented, but you get the gist:
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/inter_ps_ls_kabel_en.htm

hth,
Alex

[Disasterxpieces]

Of course there is. In a passive configuration, the inductance of the PU and the capacitance of the cable work together to form a bandpass filter. The peak frequency changes when you change cables. If you want to know exactly how it works and how you can actually work with that:
http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/

Active electronics between PUs and cable eliminate that effect, they "isolate" the PUs, giving in effect a broader frequency range. On the other hand, active electronics change the load impedance, so the input of your amplifier "sees" a different source which may change your sound as well. This effect is more prominent with tube circuitry, so when running your signal directly to the GT 10, you may not notice it. With a 4CM config, you may notice it more.

I always say "may" since this is theory - how much it really effects your sound depends on the whole configuration so you just have to experiment.
Read the article by H. Lemme (see link above) and you will understand.

hth,
Alex

Well again im using active pups into a tube amp and the difference is large. No effects or anything in between. Anyway I'll give that article a read.

[Pthang]

Wanted to chime in on the quality of Planet Wave Cable, I've used them for many years along with Monster Cable. IMHO PW are excellent, never had one problem with them. My Monsters have failed me from time to time but to their credit the company has alway replaced them for free. I flip flop between Monster and Planet Wave speaker cable, I give a very slight edge to Monster in the speaker cable dept. but Planet Wave is my go to for instrument and patch. The quality rocks in this dept. and the price is right!

Pthang

[superbeast520]

Im using Bullet Coiled Cables from guitar to Gt10 and 2 Monster keyboard cables 12ft to patch my Gt10 to my Rc50 looper in stereo, my thought being their keyboard cable would color the tone less being keyboards tend to cover a wider range of sounds than guitar, and because I figured the digital processing used in the Gt10 is very much what they use in a synth setup.....does that make sense ? or does anyone have any pro or con info regarding the Bullet Coiled cables or the Monster keyboard cable use in a guitar setup?
Also anyone know how the Gt10 patched to the looper with a midi cable sounds ?

[gumtown]

The only cable to be slightly concerned about is from guitar to GT-10, after the GT-10 shouldn't really matter since the signal is now amplified/buffered.
Midi cables don't carry audio, they only transfer data for patch change, note on/off (no note data in this setup), and other system data, but no audio.

The effect of the cable on the signal would be next to nothing, compared to other events which could degrade the sound, more so just by having a leg in front of a guitar amp speaker or something like that.

[superbeast520]

Thanks for the response and info. appreciated.

[Blue73]

I'm using Planet Waves Custom Pro instrument cables, and their Custom speaker cables. I formerly used a Monster Cable, but it failed on me.

[alteredseed]

the other day I bought a $20.00 10' planet waves cable and it was much better for me then monster's low end cables. Definitely crisper and beefier (I use passive pick ups)
I guess beauty is in the ear of the person and is an opinion.One should definitely experiment to find which cables suit there needs or wants.Thats just my $.02

[rayton]

i make most of my own.
i have excellent results using balanced mic cable (2 wire + sheild) where the 2 wires are connected thru for tip and shield, but the outer shield is connected one end only.
Totally noise free, i guess the impedance would be a bit lower, but it's no prob with active pups.

Hi Gumtown,

I know this is an old article which I stumbled on today. I am very interested in you method of using balanced mic cables. Can you explain a bit more in terms of the connection at both ends of the cable.

Thanks very much,
Ray

[4x4uk]

Connection is straightforward using mike cable and std ts 1/4 jack plugs

on both jacks one of the inner leads is connected to the tip (just make sure its the same one at both ends)

on both jacks the other inner lead is connected to the jack shield

Then on one jack only the mike cable outer shield is also connected to the jack shield

For the other jack make sure the outer cable shield is removed and ideally insulated so it cannot make contact with the jack

[rayton]

Hi 4x4uk, thanks for the details. Shall try it out later today.

Cheers, Ray

[4x4uk]

Your welcome

[rayton]

I tried the connection last evening and must say there is a noticeable difference in the quality of the sound. The guitar sounds much better, and (if I am not mistaken) I feel the sustain has improved as well.

Thanks again,
Cheers, Ray

[4x4uk]

I use that method for all outbound and send return cables, it significantly reduces the chance of creating a big radio antenna from your cables.
The only std cable when I use it (normally run a wireless set up) is the guitar to GT that is a std instrument cable