wwhat is the most logical stomp-box setup (FCB 1010) ?

[talius]

Hi guys.
After having it for some time now I’ve decided to make use of my FCB 1010 Behinger foot controller and I am trying to figure out what’s the most reasonable way to use the stomp boxes (firmware UnO).
I am asking you for your opinions about what is the most logical setup in terms of the stomp boxes switching On and Off what? I mean there are only 5 stomp box-switches per patch facing the endless count of parameters per each GT-Pro’s patch. I know that I can configure individual stomp-box setup for each patch, but I’ve been thinking of something that could standardize the whole thing like for example one master stomp-box configuration which counts for all patches. For example:

1. Toggling Preamp On&Off.
2. Toggling Solo On&Off.
3. Toggling OD/DS On&Off.
4. Toggling FX-1 On&Off.
5. Toggling FX-2 On&Off.

could be such configuration which will be valid for all patches. In that way it is much easier to keep in touch with what you can do and what you cannot do, while switching between patches.

What do you think? Did somebody manage to figure out something clever?


thanks in advance
talius

[Matt_B]

That's a really difficult thing to nail down Talius. It all depends on how you set-up your patches. How many different patches do you use when playing out?

For examples, I wouldn't bother with the Solo switch myself because I can just switch channels for a solo tone. As far as an OD/DS switch goes, that could just as easily be a channle switch too. As far as FX1 and FX2 pedals go, for me, that seems a little redundant since they share some effects.

One way you can look at the stomp pedals is not by specific functions but by general functions. By that I mean, for example, Pedal 6 could always be your rhythm/lead switch. In some patches it may switch preamp channels and in other patches it may turn OD/DS on and off but it always does the same general thing.

The other thing to do to is assign multiple parameters to a single CC so each stomp box can control multiple parameters within a single patch but I'm sure you've already thought of all these things.

If I was in your shoes, I would sit down and look at all your patches in the GT Librarian and figure out what the optimal stomp box assignments would be for each patch then look for commonalities. Determine what you use the most and set it up for that. Eventually, you'll learn what each pedal does in each patch after you've used it for a while.

Personally, I'm just going to set up my stomp box pedals so they have the same CC numbers for every patch on the FCB1010 but what these pedals control in each patch will differ slightly.

[talius]

Hi Matt_B.
Thanks. Yeah deciding what to put where and how to control it seems to be a difficult process of analyzing and judgment. It can take time but that’s ok. What is more annoying is that learning what you’ve done can take even longer and trying to remember all this complexity of parameters while you are playing is a stressing factor on the stage. That’s why I want to go for a standardized configuration which is intuitive and easy to remember. I liked the one way that you suggested – giving roles to each stomp box and keep that way for all patches. This is something similar to what I’ve been researching on. In that way, each particular stomp box may be doing a different thing with in a patch but it generally does the same thing for all patches.

More opinions are still welcome and deeply appreciated.

talius

[Guitarreverend]

Talius, This is my stompbox-setting (upper row):
6: Solo
7: Delay
8: Reverb
9: Fx1 (mostly tremolo)
10: Wah

It is a standard for all my patches, as you guys mentioned before. I am thinking of replacing the reverb with chorus / flanger / phaser. The reason the solo switch is the upper left is that it is the most easiest accesible switch. I tend to be a bit nervous the seconds before I start a solo (anyone else ?) and this helps my from misstepping. The wah is the upper right switch so it is as close to the Expression pedal as possible.

[talius]

Guitarreverend Tanks.

Yeah nervous right before SOLO. That’s normal I guess, as the boddy builds up the adrenalin portion of the chemical balance. This is kind of drugging us isn’t it?!

I’ve been experimenting these days while waiting for more opinions from you guys and I am trying to figure out things about CCs and midi channels. I happened to be quite knowledgeable musician when it comes to midi equipment and programming midi devices, as I am also educated as a software and hardware developer. But this UnO firmware isn’t the most user friendly piece of work (in my opinion). The manual is very “spaghetti” like written and I am having a hard time figuring out, what should be very intuitive and simple to understand.

One problem for example is assigning the midi channels in which the stomp boxes send their messages. While in global setup mode, you can set the midi channels for the CCs sent from the patches, but how the h***l do I set the midi channel for a stomp box. And what is the default channel they are sending on?
I tried to change the receiving channel of the GT pro in order to find out what is it reacting to and the result was even more frustrating:
On channel 1 the GT is receiving everything sent by the FCB.
On channel 2 the GT was receiving only some of the control messages.
On channel 3 there was almost no reaction.
Strange if you ask me.

My problem is that I cannot access any page or mode for editing the midi channels on which the stomp boxes are sending their messages. And I think there should be one, as there are 4 or 5 (depends on mode) Program change assignments per preset and each of these Program change assignments can send in their own midi channels (set from with in the global setup). So the user should be able to assign a specific midi channel to the messages sent by the stomp boxes as well.
Or ……………. Am I missing something here?

Somebody can help?

Thanks in advance.
talius

[Matt_B]

While I didn't find this specifically listed in the UnO documentation, I believe that the Stomp Box MIDI channel is globally set. It's device #4 (or PC4) under Global Settings. You "lose" this PC when you activate Stomp Box mode.

[talius]

While I didn't find this specifically listed in the UnO documentation, I believe that the Stomp Box MIDI channel is globally set. It's device #4 (or PC4) under Global Settings. You "lose" this PC when you activate Stomp Box mode.

Ok. Is this supposed to be a common midi channel for the CCs of all 5 stomp boxes?
If this is the case then it would mean that one should be very careful when using the stomp boxes to control more than one device as device #1 should not respond to messages meant for device #2 and wise versa.
However, does this mean that the PCs controllers per stomp box use the same midi channels as the global PC’s channel configuration?
Here is an example to what I mean:

Assume that globally (for the presets) we have assigned midi CH1 to PC controller 1, midi CH2 to PC and so fort. Now think of stomp box PCs as Childs to the preset they belong to. Would this mean that the PC controllers of the stomp box use the same corresponding midi channels as their parents?

This is confusing.

I deeply appreciate any help.

talius

[slyumc]

I'm recieving my GT-Pro and FCB 1010 tomorrow and I know have a headache thinking about programming the midi stuff to control what I want to. I have never delt with midi before, so i'm sure i'm in for a hard road. I downloaded a fcb1010 programmer from the yahoo group that I'm hoping will help. I guess i'm just lost with the CC's and PC's. Any pointers for someone just starting out?

[Matt_B]

Ok. Is this supposed to be a common midi channel for the CCs of all 5 stomp boxes? If this is the case then it would mean that one should be very careful when using the stomp boxes to control more than one device as device #1 should not respond to messages meant for device #2 and wise versa.Yes, as far as I can tell so far, all the Stomp Boxes send their control change messages on the MIDI channel set aside for Program Change 4 messages. I'll be able to verify this for sure once I finish setting up all my presets today.

[Matt_B]

Ok, I've finished setting up all the default settings for my FCB1010 and I've set up all the controllers for my first preset. It was a little tricky because I had to do the Global Settings for the FCB1010 on the pedal itself (which was easy). For some reason, the editors I'm using were not setting Global flags even when I had the FCB1010 set up receive sysex dumps. Anyway, it's done and it works great.

It appears that my hunch was correct. I have PC 4 set to MIDI Channel 1. As I mentioned before PC4 is reserved for Stomp Boxes (when you're running in Stomp Box mode).

When I turned Omni Off and set the GT Pro's RX (Receive) channel to 2, it no longer responded to any of the Stomp Box pedals.

For my first patch, here's what I've set up (I'm using Pedals 1-5 for my Stomp Boxes):

1 = Preamp Channel Switching and FX2 (Sub Delay On/Off). Switching to my lead channel (B) also turns on the Sub Delay.
2 = Digital Delay On/Off (25 msec split for a BIG stereo sound).
3 = FX1 On/Off (Flanger)
5 = Wah On/Off
EXP 1 = Wah Pedal Position
EXP 2 = Disabled

Note that even thought EXP 1 is "On" all the time, it won't do anything until I actually turn on the Wah effect with Pedal 5.

To keep things simple for me, I set the Stomp Boxes and Expression Pedals to have sequential CC numbers. I ignored the fact that I'm using defined CC numbers because I'm not sending MIDI data to anything but the GT Pro. Here's what I set the pedals to:

Pedal 1 = CC 1
Pedal 2 = CC 2
Pedal 3 = CC 3
Pedal 4 = CC 4
Pedal 5 = CC 5
EXP 1 = CC 6
EXP 2 = CC 7

I discovered that you have to set Source Mode for Assigns to Normal. If they're set to toggle, you have to press on the Stomp Boxes twice to turn them off and back on again.

I've got 9 more presets that I need to reassign CC numbers for but that will be a breeze.

[Matt_B]

Welcome aboard slymuc. MIDI is pretty straightforward once you know the basics. Do you have any other MIDI devices you plan on using?

For guitar players, the most important MIDI things to learn how to use are:

- The different types of MIDI connections (MIDI In, Out and Thru) do.
- MIDI Channels
- CC (Control Change) numbers
- Program Change (PC) numbers

The topic of this thread has been about using the FCB1010 when it has 3rd party firmware. The 3rd party firmware changes the functionality of the FCB1010 by giving it more capabilities.

[talius]

Thanks Matt_B

Well, I am done approximately as much as you are with your setup and I have made the same conclusions. In addition to this I managed to control my Modulizer and Virtualizer together with the GT via the same channel without them disturbing each other.
Than I was about to some more setup as well as recording a demo clip showing how the Virtualizer’s Tube emulator works together with the Modulizer’s speaker simulator and the GT-Pro when I found out that my recording gear failed to function properly. There was a pretty high level noise (like pink noise) on one of the channels which was mixing it self inn to the masters no matter what I do. So I am in trouble I guess. This will cost me much.
Never the less we found out what was right to do.
Thanks for the involving discussions and for the setup tips.

talius

[Matt_B]

My pleasure Talius.

In general, most guitar players don't need to use more than 1 MIDI channel unless they have a refrigerator sized rack. 8O

If you assign your CCs per patch then you don't have to worry about sending a CC message to the wrong device.

You can also use the GT Pro's Program Change Map function to determine which patches on external devices are called when you select a given patch on the GT Pro. This only works if you connect the GT Pro's MIDI Out to the next processors's MIDI In. What happens is when you select a preset on the FCB1010, it send a program change message to the GT Pro which in turns send a program change out to the next processor based upon the GT Pro's Program Change Map settings.

I'm only planning to get one more rack processor so my set-up should still be pretty simple. As a matter of fact, I managed to cut 2 presets because I am now finally able to assign pedals to all the CCs I need to. :)

[talius]

Hi slymuc and welcome to this community.

As Matt_B says, MIDI doesn’t need to be difficult to get on with. The whole complexity of the entire MIDI system is way too complicated for a man who’s learned to play music and not programming computer devices. I, as well as many others on this board, have done pretty much programming of midi devices and I am capable of manually programming and editing of System Exclusive Messages which are HEX based packages of data representing addresses, parameters and their values. If you are familiar with that you can actually directly translate, midi channels, program changes, control changes and their values from decimal to hexadecimal numbers and compose a System Exclusive Messages, The other way around is equally simple/difficult.
Back to the basic. As for the simple face of the midi concept, I am sure that you can get valuable input here on this porum.
We can begin here and now if you don’t mind.

The first thing you can do to help your self is to visit your favored music shop and ask for brochures, flyers and all kind of promotional and educational material about MIDI. Such stuff is usually distributed for free. The second is to read about MIDI on the internet and in one of the manuals of your equipment (the GT-Pro’s manual is not recommended for this purpose).

As a first lesson I can give you couple of simple examples:
1. Think of the midi as music compact CD containing 16 song tracks.
You will be able to listen to the track where the reading head point to. Analogically there are 16 midi channels available in this system and one midi device is capable of receiving and /or sending messages via one of these channels (when OMNI mode is set to OFF). However the most midi devices can be set to OMNI ON which makes them listen to all 16 midi channels simultaneously. This is very useful sometimes.
2. Think of a midi channel as one (of many) telephone lines in a large communication system.
3. Think of midi messages as simple mail massages containing the recipient’s address and a message telling to the recipient what to do. These messages are actually the program changes, the control changes and the SYSEX messages. Don’t worry about the last mentioned. It is very complicated for new beginners (strait forward).

Ok. So far so good. In case you’re ready to continue, here is part two:

If you have already a good picture about what is midi then you should try to focus on what are the different midi messages for and what they do because this is almost the only think you need to know about midi as a musician.

PC = Program change
Each patch or program or performance set or anything that you can store as set of parameters, in order to be recalled at any time, has an ID which is used by the device to define and recognize this patch. This ID is called Program change. A program change can be sent via any midi channel to any midi device and if the receiving midi device has a program with such ID number, this program will be selected. Although it is pretty strait forward, some midi devices divide their patches in to banks. The reason is simple. The standard midi concept limits the amount of program change numbers to 128 (from 0 to 127) but many devices have way larger capacity than that. So they divide this capacity in to banks each of which contains 128 patches. These banks are selected by using combination of 2 CCs. These combinations are called bank select controllers. In order to prevent this topic becoming boring, you should read later about how to select a bank with patches if the device has more than 128 patches.

CC = Control change.
A control change event is a packet containing an address byte and a value byte. The address can be anything* from 0 to 127 and the value can be anything from 0 to 127.
As I mentioned earlier, control changes can be used to access a parameter with a given address and put the value of this control change in to this parameter. For example if the address of you coffee machine is 11 and the machine has two parameters (0 = OFF and 1 = ON) and your coffee machine listens to midi channel 3 then we can send a control change message to you coffee machine via midi channel 3 in order to turn it ON. The message would look like this.
CH = 3 // means midi channel #3
CC 11 = 1 // means we are assigning value of one to control change 11

This will turn on your coffee machine.
Now, based on what you have learned, try to turn OFF your coffee machine using a control change message.

We can try to go a little further before we take a brake.
Imagine your coffee machine is capable of making several types of coffee. That would mean the machine features several programs which you as a user can chose from.
Program 1 produces espresso, while program 2 gives us a cappuccino. The machine responds to any of the 16 channels.
Now how can we force the machine to make the type of coffee we want?
Example:

CH = 2 // means midi channel #2 will be used
PC = 1 // the type of coffee produced

You have to answer which is the type of coffee that will be produced.

Imagine that this machine can read and interpret parameters sent as values with control changes. For example if we send CC (control change) 102 with any value. The value assigned to this CC will tell the machine how much cream we want in the coffee.
This would look like this:

CH = 2 // means midi channel #2 will be used
PC = 2 // the type of coffee produced
CC 102 = 15 // puts 15 gram cream in the coffee

You see? This is not that difficult is it?!

Follow this principle and you’ll manage to understand the midi concept to one very usable level.

I am here as well as many others. So you better ask when you get in to trouble instead of trying to discover the bicycle again. :D

talius :)

[slyumc]

Thanks for the small novel on midi talius, it's actually helped me understand the basics....now to learn to program! My GT-Pro and FCB1010 arrive today from American Musical, so I'm assuiming I do not have the same firmware upgrade that you all have been talking about. I do plan to use only the GT with my FCB1010, so controling other units is not an issue. Am I right in that initially, it will just scroll through the presets on the GT-Pro? I eventually want to set it to do more, like control individual effects and preamp selections, but at the moment that will do. Thanks!

[Guitarreverend]

Hey slyumc,

You can program the FCB1010 with official firmware to set it up for controlling patches as wel as stompboxes. But it is more limited than the Uno-firmware. For example, the LED's on the FCB1010 only state the last pedel pressed, where the UNO firmware shows the effect state being on / off.

[laroma]

Could someone post sysex file to control GT-PRO with FNC1010 uNo